WBC Thread

[D-train]

I remember when he bunted with 2 outs and a guy on second.

It was in 2004 when he was chasing the single-season hit record.

Looks like he one-upped that with the Yankees. https://www.pinstripealley.com/analysis ... t-analysis

That was July 1st 2013. He didn't retire until 2019.

Ah, yes, but Ichiro is a mere shell of his former self, right? That is true, but then again, it’s important to remember...

[Bil522]

There is a time and a place for bunting. Bunting with two outs and a runner on second is asinine.

Depends on who your #2 hitter is. In the 9th, you are down 1 run and have a singles hitter up who is a good bunter and can steal a base. The OF will play in because of the singles hitter but IF will play back to try and keep any ground ball from going through. So as a singles hitter, you are going to have a difficult time getting an RBI but if you bunt you will get on base and the runner will be on 3rd. Now you steal 2b and you have runners on 2nd and 3rd. Now the pitcher is nervous because the game winner is a hit away from scoring. I bet they walk the guy to setup a force at any base and now your #3 hitter is up with the bases loaded 2 out.....so yes bunting can be the right move in that instance.

[bpj]

I think bunting and moving a guy into scoring position means a lot less in today's game.

1) a massive amount of the overall runs are scored via homerun now. You sac bunt, and eliminate that chance on an entire out, which could last 3 or 4 batters at times.

2) it's not just the power swings nowadays, it's also the going from like 5 pitchers that threw 95+ mph ten years ago to something like 50+ throwing 95+ in today's game.

You bunt a guy over, you just took the bat out of one guy's hands and handed over an out, while the next guy up now has about a 25% chance of striking out.

Just doesn't make sense anymore except in very specific, game-winning situations, imo.

[Donn Beach]

I think bunting and moving a guy into scoring position means a lot less in today's game.

1) a massive amount of the overall runs are scored via homerun now. You sac bunt, and eliminate that chance on an entire out, which could last 3 or 4 batters at times.

2) it's not just the power swings nowadays, it's also the going from like 5 pitchers that threw 95+ mph ten years ago to something like 50+ throwing 95+ in today's game.
4
You bunt a guy over, you just took the bat out of one guy's hands and handed over an out, while the next guy up now has about a 25% chance of striking out.

Just doesn't make sense anymore except in very specific, game-winning situations, imo.

Yeah, structuring the lineup with a speedy guy at the top and a guy that can hit behind the runner to advance him second is pretty antiquated these days. Nowadays it's more just ranking your best hitters starting top to bottom. It's who you want to give the most at bats to that decides. Bunting is basically old fashioned, ichiros approach being amazingly old fashioned. Thing was he was really good at it. He didn't piss me off with it as much as fascinate me. This guy comes over from Japan and plays baseball like its 1910. And does it in the middle of the PED era. It was up there with Mark Fidrych talking to the baseball

[bpj]

I think bunting and moving a guy into scoring position means a lot less in today's game.

1) a massive amount of the overall runs are scored via homerun now. You sac bunt, and eliminate that chance on an entire out, which could last 3 or 4 batters at times.

2) it's not just the power swings nowadays, it's also the going from like 5 pitchers that threw 95+ mph ten years ago to something like 50+ throwing 95+ in today's game.
4
You bunt a guy over, you just took the bat out of one guy's hands and handed over an out, while the next guy up now has about a 25% chance of striking out.

Just doesn't make sense anymore except in very specific, game-winning situations, imo.

Yeah, structuring the lineup with a speedy guy at the top and a guy that can hit behind the runner to advance him second is pretty antiquated these days. Nowadays it's more just ranking your best hitters starting top to bottom. It's who you want to give the most at bats to that decides. Bunting is basically old fashioned, ichiros approach being amazingly old fashioned. Thing was he was really good at it. He didn't piss me off with it as much as fascinate me. This guy comes over from Japan and plays baseball like its 1910. And does it in the middle of the PED era. It was up there with Mark Fidrych talking to the baseball

Good points Donn.

The only thing that bothered me about Ichiro was the need to play a position where, especially at the time, power bats were usually stashed.

So on top of being 20% of payroll, his presence took a potential power bat out of the lineup and added an extra 2B/CF type bat (where a player with Ichiro's type of bat should have been playing) to the lineup.

Ichiro was definitely a fascinating player.

[Bil522]

I think bunting and moving a guy into scoring position means a lot less in today's game.

1) a massive amount of the overall runs are scored via homerun now. You sac bunt, and eliminate that chance on an entire out, which could last 3 or 4 batters at times.

2) it's not just the power swings nowadays, it's also the going from like 5 pitchers that threw 95+ mph ten years ago to something like 50+ throwing 95+ in today's game.
4
You bunt a guy over, you just took the bat out of one guy's hands and handed over an out, while the next guy up now has about a 25% chance of striking out.

Just doesn't make sense anymore except in very specific, game-winning situations, imo.

Yeah, structuring the lineup with a speedy guy at the top and a guy that can hit behind the runner to advance him second is pretty antiquated these days. Nowadays it's more just ranking your best hitters starting top to bottom. It's who you want to give the most at bats to that decides. Bunting is basically old fashioned, ichiros approach being amazingly old fashioned. Thing was he was really good at it. He didn't piss me off with it as much as fascinate me. This guy comes over from Japan and plays baseball like its 1910. And does it in the middle of the PED era. It was up there with Mark Fidrych talking to the baseball

Good points Donn.

The only thing that bothered me about Ichiro was the need to play a position where, especially at the time, power bats were usually stashed.

So on top of being 20% of payroll, his presence took a potential power bat out of the lineup and added an extra 2B/CF type bat (where a player with Ichiro's type of bat should have been playing) to the lineup.

Ichiro was definitely a fascinating player.

But he played RF way better than he did CF, plus with Cameron out there you had the RF power numbers you wanted playing CF. This is what I don't get about positional power... who cares where the power is or isn't, as long as you have it in the lineup. Play the best defensive lineup you can and set the batting lineup based on what kind of hitters are needed. Prime Ichiro is 1000% what the M's needed last year to win the WS. It is what I hope Donovan can provide...not total Ichi...but a solid .290/.370/.425 type of hitter.

[bpj]

Yeah, structuring the lineup with a speedy guy at the top and a guy that can hit behind the runner to advance him second is pretty antiquated these days. Nowadays it's more just ranking your best hitters starting top to bottom. It's who you want to give the most at bats to that decides. Bunting is basically old fashioned, ichiros approach being amazingly old fashioned. Thing was he was really good at it. He didn't piss me off with it as much as fascinate me. This guy comes over from Japan and plays baseball like its 1910. And does it in the middle of the PED era. It was up there with Mark Fidrych talking to the baseball

Good points Donn.

The only thing that bothered me about Ichiro was the need to play a position where, especially at the time, power bats were usually stashed.

So on top of being 20% of payroll, his presence took a potential power bat out of the lineup and added an extra 2B/CF type bat (where a player with Ichiro's type of bat should have been playing) to the lineup.

Ichiro was definitely a fascinating player.

But he played RF way better than he did CF, plus with Cameron out there you had the RF power numbers you wanted playing CF. This is what I don't get about positional power... who cares where the power is or isn't, as long as you have it in the lineup. Play the best defensive lineup you can and set the batting lineup based on what kind of hitters are needed. Prime Ichiro is 1000% what the M's needed last year to win the WS. It is what I hope Donovan can provide...not total Ichi...but a solid .290/.370/.425 type of hitter.

Sure, it works when you have a Cameron out there. But once we didn't, it became obvious fast.

I still would have taken Cameron + another power bat over Ichiro though.

And on top of the position he played, Ichiro's OPS declined as time went on also, making it even worse.

[Donn Beach]

Terms of ichiro taking up 20% of the payroll

As part of a five-year contract extension signed in July 2007, Ichiro Suzuki deferred $25 million of his $90 million deal with the Seattle Mariners.

So he was being paid more like $13 MIL a season. The mariners responded by reducing payroll. His contract made as much sense for the team then as ohtani's does today for the dodgers terms of ichiro's ability to generate revenue. The dodgers didn't respond to ohtani's signing a contract by reducing payroll. The dodgers are taking advantage of Ohtani's ability to generate revenue by raising payroll. Of all the things that irritate me about how they have managed the franchise that's close to number one.

Terms of certain positions demanding certain types of hitters, that's an old fashioned concept. Today you have power hitting shortstops and defensive first basemen. If I was clever at all with stats I'd be curious to investigate that more, that shift