Happy Independence Day! 250th

[DanielVogelbach]

Bro, if you have enough hens it can be a profitable enterprise... your point is moronic. You're reaching hard.

[mostonmike]

Bro, if you have enough hens it can be a profitable enterprise... your point is moronic. You're reaching hard.

Which wasn't what you said.

You said

# 2 - Eggs are free when you raise your own hens

You literally said "Eggs are free." Now you're talking about running a commercial poultry business just to break even on feed. Which is it?

If you want to move the goalposts so you don't look as moronic as me that's up to you.

[DanielVogelbach]

The price of eggs has absolutely nothing to do with anything I presented. It's some weird fallback, defense mechanism you pivoted to when presented with truths about central banks. the illegitimacy and immorality of government, and the obvious existence of a one world system.

If you're gonna go all rah-rah on the UK that's no different to me than anyone doing that for any country in the world. All I see is flag-waving, brainwashed slaves. My points have nothing to do with country vs country. They have to do with objective morality. If you are crediting your "government" for anything, then to me you're completely lost. And, this is all based on the understanding of freedom. Free markets. Nobody claiming the right to rule over you and extort you with "taxes". All interaction between humans should be voluntary. The only valid law is natural law and contract law.

The idea that the price of eggs anywhere has any relevancy shows me this is not a conversation actually worth having. My entire point at the outset was simply that people living in North America had more freedoms in 1776 then they do now by orders of magnitude, and this is irrefutable. you came back by introducing an irrelevant USA vs UK narrative. Then, you tried to make a point that life is better now than it was in 1776? Uh, and you're giving slavery the credit? Any improvement in quality of life has been achieved in spite of the tyrannical governments and banks, not because of them. Nothing advances humanity like freedom. We naturally desire to be free, and when we're free we can accomplish the most advancement, achieve the most happiness and prosperity. If you want to argue on the side of slavery, that's fine... you won't convince me that freedom isn't better.

[DanielVogelbach]

If you want to move the goalposts so you don't look as moronic as me that's up to you.

I'm saying if you have hens laying eggs, then the eggs are essentially free. Do you have any idea how it works? you get one egg per hen per day. Compare that to buying them from the store. It is very easy to run a surplus. So even better than free eggs, is free eggs PLUS surplus eggs you can sell. Plus you can get the freshest eggs and best quality. Poultry is the meat BTW.. not the eggs.

I'm also saying this has nothing to do with the illegitimacy and immorality of governments and central banks. I have no idea why the price of eggs was even introduced. It has zero relevancy. And it doesn't matter if it's eggs, milk, televisions, or automobiles, if the fake-ass fiat currency is devalued by your slave masters, then it's going to raise prices no matter where you go... is that really that difficult to comprehend!?!?!?!?


But, since you introduced the price of eggs, I'm just saying that raising your own hens is a good countermove to reduce your reliance on the system.

The moral of this story is that you are basically bringing up the concept of a free market. "vote with your wallet"... Recognize that's EXACTLY what I support. But, if you think you have anything close to a free market anywhere in the world, especially the UK, then you are simply not seeing the full picture, which is the point I'm making. That's why I made my initial comment comparing the level of freedom in 1776 vs today.

If you think I'm a moron, I do not care. I know what I'm talking about. Natural Law. Objective Morality. Voluntaryism. Peace, Love, Anarchy!

[mostonmike]

Daniel, I’ll actually do something rare on an internet forum and openly concede that on a purely theoretical level, you are spot on about mostly everything.

You’re right about macroeconomics—central banks do devalue currency, inflation is a hidden tax, and price increases are ultimately a symptom of a rigged monetary system. You're also right about statism and global systems. I've actually got some interesting stuff to share with you another time about Bulgaria after speaking to some people here. It's fascinating.

But here’s the rub: we don’t live in a textbook, we live in the real world. I am a pragmatist, and an unachievable utopianism just isn't useful for everyday life, so most people take pragmatic decisions.

When Tesco jacks up prices, the British public doesn't need to overthrow the Bank of England to react; they just shift their billions to Aldi. Is it a total revolution that smashes the global elite? No. But it is a practical exercise of choice that forced a multi-billion-pound corporate cartel to behave, cap their margins, and match prices. That isn’t "obedience"—that’s coping with the reality on the ground.

But by the same token, the credibility of the argument takes a massive hit when you make a claim that simply doesn't hold water under real-world scrutiny. Asserting that "eggs are free when you raise your own hens," only to have to correct it later by saying "if you have enough hens it can be a profitable enterprise," is a direct contradiction. And what you've said about it since to defend your contradiction just sounds like complete bollocks.

[DanielVogelbach]

Daniel, I’ll actually do something rare on an internet forum and openly concede that on a purely theoretical level, you are spot on about mostly everything.

You’re right about macroeconomics—central banks do devalue currency, inflation is a hidden tax, and price increases are ultimately a symptom of a rigged monetary system. You're also right about statism and global systems. I've actually got some interesting stuff to share with you another time about Bulgaria after speaking to some people here. It's fascinating.

But here’s the rub: we don’t live in a textbook, we live in the real world. I am a pragmatist, and an unachievable utopianism just isn't useful for everyday life, so most people take pragmatic decisions.

When Tesco jacks up prices, the British public doesn't need to overthrow the Bank of England to react; they just shift their billions to Aldi. Is it a total revolution that smashes the global elite? No. But it is a practical exercise of choice that forced a multi-billion-pound corporate cartel to behave, cap their margins, and match prices. That isn’t "obedience"—that’s coping with the reality on the ground.

But by the same token, the credibility of the argument takes a massive hit when you make a claim that simply doesn't hold water under real-world scrutiny. Asserting that "eggs are free when you raise your own hens," only to have to correct it later by saying "if you have enough hens it can be a profitable enterprise," is a direct contradiction. And what you've said about it since to defend your contradiction just sounds like complete bollocks.

You're reaching to get me on a technicality when the point was simply that if you raise your own hens the eggs are higher quality and basically free. On top of it being a technicality, it has nothing do do with the points I was presenting. It was some weird form of you showing approval toward the economic system that you're forced to live under.

I think somewhere in this thread I mentioned how at lower levels there is more free competition. Small businesses. As you go higher, it gets more controlled. A new large grocery store chain taking on some market share is not significant to me, because as you say, you're NOT overthrowing the Bank of England, and therefore there's no real change. In fact, I would consider that to be a bit of trickery that you're falling for. Oh hey look a new grocery store chain. We are free! The taxes continue, the fiat currency continues, the wars continue, etc. But, you saved a dollar on a loaf of bread! Hooray!

You're basically just switching topics for no apparent reason. I wasn't discussing pragmatism, activism, or how to change the world. I was merely pointing out that in 1776 we were more free by orders of magnitude. This is irrefutable by any measure. And, if you want to claim a better quality of life today versus then I would say that's debatable. But certainly any advancement has happened in spite of the governments and central banks, not because of them. They are constructs designed to control you like livestock.

Independence = In Dependence. I'm just pointing out the silliness of celebrating our freedom from Great Britain when we're now off the gold standard, paying taxes, and dealing with far more "laws" and regulations than what existed under colonial rule. In other words, I'm pointing out that the holiday is statist propaganda. That's all.

[mostonmike]

Glad you got AI to help you frame your argument much better than you did. That last post makes more sense, but then again it's not all your own words, is it?

​But where you or your AI is still clinging to a view that, if I "want to claim a better quality of life today versus then (1776) I would say that's debatable," then I think we should end the debate there and declare a winner.

Maybe I am pulling you up on another technicality so my advice is to at least proof read what AI tells you to post when you are dialling up a more inteligent tone.

​Let everyone who reads this thread judge who has made the more valid points. That comment alone might seal it for some.

You had only just been given the freedom to say what you've just said in 1776. Now you can shout to the world about it. EDIT: I stand corrected you didnt have that freedom until 1791.

​It might not be me who has won, and I am happy to accept defeat if that’s what the room decides.

[mostonmike]

For Daniel, I promised a travel log, and others might find this interesting from the perspective of the social and economics of my recent trips.

​I am lucky that I get 8 weeks of paid annual leave—though not total freedom, I guess, from the tyranny of the One World economy. In the last 12 months, I've been to Tunisia, Cyprus, two fortnights in the good old USA, and this current week in Bulgaria. Hence more time to post, which I don’t know is a good thing!

​Tunisia was fascinating. We went back to where we spent our honeymoon in Hammamet and felt that while the holiday resorts had seen major investment over the years, the everyday people had become poorer. That will be due to inflation as Daniel suggests.

​The Jasmine Revolution started there in 2010 after a young street vendor stood in the middle of the street outside a government building, doused himself in gasoline, and set himself on fire out of sheer despair over police corruption. People took to the streets using a simple, powerful slogan that should resonate with Daniel: "Work, Freedom, National Dignity."

​The regime killed hundreds trying to crush the protests, but the people succeeded in toppling the dictatorship inside a month because the military ultimately refused orders to massacre their own citizens.

​However, that hard-won momentum got completely wiped out in 2015 after two horrific ISIS terrorist attacks killed 22 and 38 tourists—the second beach massacre being mostly Brits. Overnight, the growing economy crashed. Hotels closed including the one we had originally stayed at. The country relied so heavily on tourism that it made up 15% of their GDP, and it vanished in an instant. COVID added further misery a few years later when tourism was rebuilding only to shut down again. Without economic hope, the democratic momentum stalled, and they have since slid back toward an autocratic regime. Sad.

​They also run a strictly closed currency. You are asked a dozen times at the airport to empty your pockets and wallets to prove you aren't taking any Dinars out of the country, yet Visa and Mastercard work seamlessly.

​But back to the reality of the poor. The legal minimum wage sits between 450 and 500 Tunisian Dinars (TND) per month, which converts to a brutal $150 to $175 USD. Knowing this, we tipped heavily by local standards.

50 Dinar tips were our starting baseline. It’s only about $17 USD to us, but it effectively handed our waiter nearly two days' worth of legal minimum wage in a single moment. We were looked after for sure, essentially enjoying a personal waiter at the bar.

But the horrible side is the street and market traders are scraping out such a horrible living that you dare not stop and browse their stalls for fear of being dragged in the back and robbed. Or worse. That 60 Dinar "real leather" handbag was an item worth landing to escape with our lives. Didn't even haggle, I could have got it for 40.

​While Daniel might view that wealth disparity as structural exploitation, the reality on the ground is that our cash went straight into a working man’s pocket. Potentially that is a broken economic system but we were just doing something good for one person. Not going to change the world but it made a brighter day for someone else.

Now, I know Daniel or his AI will probably jump on this and call it my saviour complex as a prime example of structural neo-colonialism—wealthy Western travelers treating a depressed economy like a discount playground where pocket change buys you a "personal servant." That’s because I asked AI myself for a pre-emption. And on a macroeconomic level, they will be completely right. The system is exploitative.

I was just on a holiday and saw a person who was working hard to earn a living and maybe help him out. It certainly beat my last US experience at a basketball game where I picked up a pizza and a beer, put it on a scale to autoprocess. Without any human interaction it suggested a tip of 20%. We shouldn’t have to tip at all, the service industry should pay decent wages to their workers.

I paid fuck all, I will look into how to make my own beer next time. Then it will be free

[Peepaw]

Advocates for anarchy, i.e., complete fantasy, must harbor marxist/communist/socialist (yet more fantasy) undertones. No anarchist system has ever existed either over a broad area, or for any significant length of time. Talk about childish notions of "freedom" - these types always need a tit to suckle.

Recent example: The CHAZ zone fiasco in Seattle. That little experiment only cost the people several million in a lawsuit.