H1B Visas, Elon Musk, and Trump's Flip Flop

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H1B Visas, Elon Musk, and Trump's Flip Flop

Post by Seattle or Bust » Tue Dec 31, 2024 6:53 pm

One area that I align with certain people of the right is promoting American talent in the work force. Especially in areas that promote the promising, young American worker that follows the path of getting an education... and no, I do not think the same applies to lower-skill jobs in the agriculture and hospitality industries (which is why I'm against scapegoating Mexicans).

H1B Visas, IMO, completely sell out the skilled American worker so that mega-rich tech companies, that were built off the backs of American tax payers and correlating opportunity, can avoid having to hire American workers who require promotions after tenure and correlating salary increases. This practice shouldn't be allowed.

Tech CEO's claim that the H1B program allows them to hire the "top .01%" of engineers. How we know it's bullshit is that H1B's recipients are selected in a lottery system... they're not vetted for anything that makes them the top 0.1%... they're simply cheap labor.

Every year, 250,000 young Americans graduate with degrees in engineering and computer science, yet tech companies claim they need H1B's to fill a massive void that exists in hiring engineers - lies. 85,000 H1B's are allotted yearly in the US with loopholes that allow for more creating "competition" for the young, skilled American worker that shouldn't exist. I put competition in quotations because it's really not... many young, skilled Americans with engineering degrees are having immense difficulties finding jobs.

In April 2024, Tesla laid off 14,000 engineers... the bulk of which were senior engineers making higher compensations. During these layoffs, Tesla put in a request for 2,000 H1B visas which represents 4% of the total allotment of H1B visas currently allowed in the US per year. H1B visas last from 3-6 years, meaning that companies are simply rotating immigrant workers out when their visas expire for more immigrant workers that they can continue to pay well under competitive compensation for engineers with experience and tenure. Not only that, but H1B workers are generally a lot more willing to work 60-80 weeks, which again... undercuts American standards for labor and compensation.

For years, Trump railed against H1B's in favor of opportunity for the American worker and labeled his campaign the "America First" campaign. In 2017, Trump issued the "Buy American, Hire American" executive order which required U.S. employers to pay U.S. workers higher wages to protect their economic interests against those of foreign workers. Trump also put in many measures aimed to restrict the approval of H1B's and many more were denied during his presidency.

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Now, it appears Elon Musk is in Trump's ear... bought ass mother fucker. “I’ve always liked the visas, I have always been in favor of the visas. That’s why we have them,” - Trump on 12/28/2024. Such a fucking shill.

What shouldn't be lost in this conversation is also the cultural impact the influx of immigrant workers is having. Nearly 300,000 Indian immigrants make up the bulk of H1B visas holders in the US. Cities near tech hubs are being overrun by a population of people with little-to-no cultural connection to the places they're moving to. They make little effort to assimilate and instead are relegating themselves to ethnic enclaves that are transforming the identities of these cities. Not only that, but the influx of immigrants who make well over the median income in these areas are causing housing costs to explode... in particular, short-term rentals due to wages not being enough to purchase home and nature of a visa being temporary.

Like I said, I'm highly liberal... but being liberal or conservative should say nothing about whether you support the American worker. American workers should ALWAYS be the priority and tech companies are selling the American worker down the river. Not only that, but there needs to be assimilation programs in place to assist in the process of introducing these workers to their new environments if programs like this are going to exist.

I do believe that foreign workers should play a part and that these programs are fine so long as they are carefully crafted/vetted to not undercut opportunities for the American worker. As it sits, these programs are simply another way for the rich to become richer... that shouldn't be the goal. They should truly be about getting the highest skilled workers into the American workforce and in filling actual voids that exist.

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Re: H1B Visas, Elon Musk, and Trump's Flip Flop

Post by gil » Tue Dec 31, 2024 8:40 pm

Excellent post, and to my mind some complex issues.

Musk’s arguments for making the world’s top talent available to American companies is compelling. But equally compelling is maximizing the opportunities for American citizens.

The “free markets” part of me wants to support Musk’s position, but I think you (Seattle or Bust) are right that the H-1B has often been used for purposes other than to get “the best.” I therefore am against an American citizen being passed over for a job via the H-1B route unless there is a really, and I mean REALLY, clear reason that the American is inferior.

One problem I see is that for any skilled position I can think of, there aren’t objective measures for which person is “the best” or the most qualified. Yes, of course, I can separate the top 10% from the bottom 10% in an applicant pool, but how can I tell that #1 is better than #2, or that #1 and 2 are better than #3 and 4?

One personal brush with H-1B. I few years back I taught a class at the UW as an adjunct. The department had an opening for a full time instructor. (They made it understood that I wasn’t qualified - I agreed, and agree, by the way.) There were two finalists: one was an American citizen; the other, a guy from India, finishing his PhD at an American university. The two were pretty equally qualified as best I could tell (education, experience).

The powers that be decided they wanted to hire the guy from India. My understanding is that they did so via the H-1B program (otherwise, he could not be legally employed), and that to do so, the department and the university had to state that there was no American citizen qualified for the position.

To me, that is ridiculous. No one, to my knowledge, said that the American citizen was unqualified. The department simply decided, for whatever reason(s), that they would rather hire the guy from India.

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Re: H1B Visas, Elon Musk, and Trump's Flip Flop

Post by GL_Storm » Tue Dec 31, 2024 9:38 pm

The part of the law that specifies that these workers shouldn't displace American workers is simply not enforced. It may have been at one time. I'm not sure about that either way. But it's definitely not enforced now. Also not strictly enforced, if at all, is the provision that these workers should make the same prevailing wages as Americans in the same role. The most flagrant violators of the prevailing wage provision are the technical contracting agencies like Wipro, HCL, Aditi, and Tata. These companies get thousands of these visas each year which they use to operate a labor pipeline from India to the US. Microsoft and other tech companies pay them and they in turn pay the employees. Since the employees work for the agency, their compensation isn't measured against their FTE peers at Microsoft, Google, etc., but against their peers at the agency.

Using notional numbers, let's say in this arrangement that Wipro gets $100/hr for the services of Pradeep the engineer, out of which they'll pay him something like $50/hr plus the cost of his benefits package (which isn't nothing), and if he's onsite they'll then pay Microsoft in turn some sort of fee for the use of his cube or office. The agency will also pay the cost of all of Pradeep's equipment. When all expenses are paid, what's leftover is the margin. Probably, they'll need that to be at least 30%, which is tight, but it's a volume business. From Microsoft's perspective, this $100/hr cost might only be a few percentage points cheaper than they would pay an American agency for the same project, but think about how that adds up across the entire company.

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Re: H1B Visas, Elon Musk, and Trump's Flip Flop

Post by Seattle or Bust » Tue Dec 31, 2024 10:14 pm

GL_Storm wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2024 9:38 pm
The part of the law that specifies that these workers shouldn't displace American workers is simply not enforced. It may have been at one time. I'm not sure about that either way. But it's definitely not enforced now. Also not strictly enforced, if at all, is the provision that these workers should make the same prevailing wages as Americans in the same role. The most flagrant violators of the prevailing wage provision are the technical contracting agencies like Wipro, HCL, Aditi, and Tata. These companies get thousands of these visas each year which they use to operate a labor pipeline from India to the US. Microsoft and other tech companies pay them and they in turn pay the employees. Since the employees work for the agency, their compensation isn't measured against their FTE peers at Microsoft, Google, etc., but against their peers at the agency.

Using notional numbers, let's say in this arrangement that Wipro gets $100/hr for the services of Pradeep the engineer, out of which they'll pay him something like $50/hr plus the cost of his benefits package (which isn't nothing), and if he's onsite they'll then pay Microsoft in turn some sort of fee for the use of his cube or office. The agency will also pay the cost of all of Pradeep's equipment. When all expenses are paid, what's leftover is the margin. Probably, they'll need that to be at least 30%, which is tight, but it's a volume business. From Microsoft's perspective, this $100/hr cost might only be a few percentage points cheaper than they would pay an American agency for the same project, but think about how that adds up across the entire company.
Yeah. Not only that, but these companies are also taking advantage of employees not progressing through their careers. I'm sure these people get paid the same salaries from year 1-3 before they're shipped off for their replacement. Saves the company a ton of money to not provide a 20-year career to an American worker.

I read that the avg H1B visa recipient actually makes a slightly higher salary at Microsoft than the average entry engineer... but then when you consider that they're getting 60-80 hours a week out of these people AND not progressing them through a career... it's a puppy mill.

What happened to investing in people?

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Re: H1B Visas, Elon Musk, and Trump's Flip Flop

Post by bpj » Tue Dec 31, 2024 11:06 pm

They need to get rid of the illegals then worry about the people who are actually here to work legally.

According to Grok, 20,000,000 illegals would occupy 6% of the total US housing market.

It's killing the American Dream for young Americans by driving up housing prices. Basic supply and demand.

As far as I knew Trump always supported legal immigration.

Musk supports it way too much.

Grok on the vacancy rate:
The historical residential vacancy rate in the United States has fluctuated over time, reflecting changes in housing supply, demand, economic conditions, and demographic trends. Here's an overview based on available data:

Homeowner Vacancy Rate:
The homeowner vacancy rate, which measures the proportion of homeowner housing units vacant and for sale, has seen significant lows in recent years. It reached its lowest recorded rate of 0.8% in 2022, a figure not seen since the U.S. Census Bureau began recording this data in 1956. Historically, this rate has been much higher, with a peak around 2.9% in 2008 during the housing crisis. The rate has generally decreased since the recovery from the foreclosure crisis between 2009 and 2019, with further tightening during the COVID-19 pandemic. By the third quarter of 2024, it was reported at 1.0%.



Rental Vacancy Rate:
The rental vacancy rate, which measures the proportion of rental housing units vacant and available for rent, has also experienced notable changes. It hit a low of 5.8% in the first quarter of 2022, marking one of the lowest points in decades, last seen around 1984. Historically, this rate has been higher, with a notable peak at 11.1% in July 2009. By 2024, the national rental vacancy rate stood at 6.6% in April and rose to 6.9% in the third quarter. The rate has been influenced by factors like construction rates, migration patterns, and economic conditions.


In summary, both homeowner and rental vacancy rates have been at or near historic lows in recent years, indicating a tight housing market with significant demand relative to available supply. However, these rates fluctuate, and historical data shows periods of higher vacancy rates, particularly following economic downturns or during recovery phases.

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Re: H1B Visas, Elon Musk, and Trump's Flip Flop

Post by Seattle or Bust » Tue Dec 31, 2024 11:18 pm

bpj wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2024 11:06 pm
They need to get rid of the illegals then worry about the people who are actually here to work legally.

According to Grok, 20,000,000 illegals would occupy 6% of the total US housing market.

It's killing the American Dream for young Americans by driving up housing prices. Basic supply and demand.

As far as I knew Trump always supported legal immigration.

Musk supports it way too much.
It shouldn't be a version of legal immigration given its current operation. But it's allowed because its making rich people rich... like Elon.

If a person from Mexico wants to move here and clean hotel rooms to make a living... there's not a competitive market for Americans and those jobs. Take them... they're a cog that allows this thing to run. Same in agriculture. They need a place to live...

People from India are not essential for Microsoft to run.

Have you been to Bellevue, Crossroads or Redmond lately? They are now cities made up mostly of apartment buildings... all built to cater to the rise in H1B workers. They've built 4x Mayuri Indian Markets in Redmond and Crossroads within the last 3 years. Movie theatres are offering showings of like 5 Bollywood movies at a time.

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Re: H1B Visas, Elon Musk, and Trump's Flip Flop

Post by bpj » Tue Dec 31, 2024 11:40 pm

Seattle or Bust wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2024 11:18 pm
bpj wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2024 11:06 pm
They need to get rid of the illegals then worry about the people who are actually here to work legally.

According to Grok, 20,000,000 illegals would occupy 6% of the total US housing market.

It's killing the American Dream for young Americans by driving up housing prices. Basic supply and demand.

As far as I knew Trump always supported legal immigration.

Musk supports it way too much.
It shouldn't be a version of legal immigration given its current operation. But it's allowed because its making rich people rich... like Elon.

If a person from Mexico wants to move here and clean hotel rooms to make a living... there's not a competitive market for Americans and those jobs. Take them... they're a cog that allows this thing to run. Same in agriculture. They need a place to live...

People from India are not essential for Microsoft to run.

Have you been to Bellevue, Crossroads or Redmond lately? They are now cities made up mostly of apartment buildings... all built to cater to the rise in H1B workers. They've built 4x Mayuri Indian Markets in Redmond and Crossroads within the last 3 years. Movie theatres are offering showings of like 5 Bollywood movies at a time.
Glad to see you're against immigration now that it's affecting you.

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Re: H1B Visas, Elon Musk, and Trump's Flip Flop

Post by Seattle or Bust » Wed Jan 01, 2025 12:17 am

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Last edited by Seattle or Bust on Wed Jan 01, 2025 12:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: H1B Visas, Elon Musk, and Trump's Flip Flop

Post by Seattle or Bust » Wed Jan 01, 2025 12:35 am

Curious BPJ... how do you feel about Trump winning due to a vow to protect American labor... and then selling that protection straight to Musk?

Hell, Musk called some MAGA folks who he deems racist "contemptable fools who must be removed from the Republican party root and stem."

Ramiswami more or less called many MAGA folks dumb and lazy... you know... sort of like the deplorable comment from Clinton that so many got upset over.

I thought electing Trump was about turning away from the elites who were selling folks down the river? Instead, a new set of elites are now using Trump as a puppet to screw the American worker... they just happen to have an (R) next to their names now... oops.

Image

I thought this was an interesting post.

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Re: H1B Visas, Elon Musk, and Trump's Flip Flop

Post by bpj » Wed Jan 01, 2025 11:39 am

Seattle or Bust wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2025 12:35 am
Curious BPJ... how do you feel about Trump winning due to a vow to protect American labor... and then selling that protection straight to Musk?

Hell, Musk called some MAGA folks who he deems racist "contemptable fools who must be removed from the Republican party root and stem."

Ramiswami more or less called many MAGA folks dumb and lazy... you know... sort of like the deplorable comment from Clinton that so many got upset over.

I thought electing Trump was about turning away from the elites who were selling folks down the river? Instead, a new set of elites are now using Trump as a puppet to screw the American worker... they just happen to have an (R) next to their names now... oops.

Image

I thought this was an interesting post.
Trump won because liberals are degenerate idiots and have run the country into the ground.

Had nothing to do with vowing to protect American labor. He promised to get illegals out and I haven't seen him waver on that.

I couldn't care less what Vivek and Elon's positions on immigration are, their job is cutting government waste, not immigration.

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