Birthright Citizenship

[gil]

Do you have locks on your doors?
Do you lock your car when you leave it in a parking lot?

How is that any different than citizens trying to protect our country?

Are you seriously confused between private security and organized crime?

It's not my "country" by my consent. I was forced into my social security number. I have no issue with people voluntarily paying to defend their community. I have an issue with taxation, statism, tyranny, crime, legal tender laws, "borders", "countries", etc. You shouldn't be forced to follow any laws outside of natural law unless you consented to a contract.

I doubt I am confused, I just see it as a different scale.

Houses should have locks.
Local communities should have rules.
Cities should have laws.
Counties should have laws.
States should have laws.
The country should have laws.

There are no difference between locks and laws. They are there to protect people and property... to work against crime. That isn't saying that all laws are lawful or helpful at all.

I don't agree with him, but I think that DanielVogelbach is saying that locks on your personal house is fine, because that is your decision alone. You pay the cost and enjoy the benefits.

The scale you refer to is absolutely correct, but there is something else there too: The possibility that some people (e.g., Daniel Vogelbach) don't buy into rules/laws at any level (i.e. local community through country) that they have not explicitly agreed to.

[Walla Walla Dawg II]

But there is no way in hell if there are no laws at the Federal, State, County, City or Community level could anyone be safe.

[gil]

But there is no way in hell if there are no laws at the Federal, State, County, City or Community level could anyone be safe.

I agree.

[DanielVogelbach]

It's not a different scale. One is voluntary, and one is forced.

Nobody should be forced to pay for "government". All taxation is theft and immoral.

You can't delegate rights that you don't have yourself. You don't have the right to extort your neighbor, therefore you can't delegate that right to a "representative". (nobody represents you, they all represent the ruling class)

Locks on your house are private security just as hiring private guards to protect your private property. Private security firms that actually prevent crime can be hired and fired at will. This is not the case for the illegitimate and immoral "law enforcement" agencies yet everyone recognizes their authority and monopoly on the use of force to be legitimate.

Private security is the free market. Borders and government are mechanisms of the ruling class designed to control the slaves.

The borders are only for the slaves. The slave masters are not required to show their passports. The slave masters travel freely.

I'm talking about the difference between voluntaryism and statism. Statism is the belief in some mythological idea that "government" is working in your favor. Voluntaryism is the idea that human interaction should be voluntary. Nobody has the right to claim jurisdiction over half of North America and extort everyone. Similarly, nobody has the right to print up fake monopoly money and pass legal tender laws that force you to use that money to pay your taxes.

If I'm not making sense, check out the movie "The Jones Plantation".

[DanielVogelbach]

But there is no way in hell if there are no laws at the Federal, State, County, City or Community level could anyone be safe.

There is always natural law.

Everything else is contract law.

There is no legitimate basis to the statutory laws and legislation coming from the so-called "lawmakers" and enforced by the "law enforcement"

Nobody has any right to force peaceful people to do anything. Can't morally force them to pay taxes. Can't morally force them to send their kids to K-12 government indoctrination camps.

The only justifiable use of force is for self defense or to punish someone else for breaking natural law.

Private security does an excellent job at keeping people safe. Private security firms will also get rid of corrupt members on their team to protect their reputation. Everything works better in the free market.

[gil]

But there is no way in hell if there are no laws at the Federal, State, County, City or Community level could anyone be safe.

There is always natural law.

Everything else is contract law.

There is no legitimate basis to the statutory laws and legislation coming from the so-called "lawmakers" and enforced by the "law enforcement"

Nobody has any right to force peaceful people to do anything. Can't morally force them to pay taxes. Can't morally force them to send their kids to K-12 government indoctrination camps.

The only justifiable use of force is for self defense or to punish someone else for breaking natural law.

Private security does an excellent job at keeping people safe. Private security firms will also get rid of corrupt members on their team to protect their reputation. Everything works better in the free market.

How does your worldview address threats from other countries? E.g., Japan in WWII, or the concern about Russia during the Cold War? Even for the sake of argument, the "invasions" at the borders by people seeking a better life here?

On border security, Trump has increased that, and obviously that is central power and our tax dollars paying for it whether we agree or not. Do you argue that securing the border is wrong because it's not consistent with natural law, and that taxing me for border security is theft? Or do you argue that "private security" could do as good a job as central (i.e., national) authority?

[Walla Walla Dawg II]

But there is no way in hell if there are no laws at the Federal, State, County, City or Community level could anyone be safe.

There is always natural law.

Everything else is contract law.

There is no legitimate basis to the statutory laws and legislation coming from the so-called "lawmakers" and enforced by the "law enforcement"

Nobody has any right to force peaceful people to do anything. Can't morally force them to pay taxes. Can't morally force them to send their kids to K-12 government indoctrination camps.

The only justifiable use of force is for self defense or to punish someone else for breaking natural law.

Private security does an excellent job at keeping people safe. Private security firms will also get rid of corrupt members on their team to protect their reputation. Everything works better in the free market.

You keep talking about "Natural Law". What exactly is natural law...... it's called survival of the fittest where rape, assault and theft go unpunished.

We as a civilized society need laws to keep things fair and safe. As you said, nobody has any right to force peaceful people to do anything (but not all people are peaceful).

But we've had this debate before.

[DanielVogelbach]

You keep talking about "Natural Law". What exactly is natural law...... it's called survival of the fittest where rape, assault and theft go unpunished.

We as a civilized society need laws to keep things fair and safe. As you said, nobody has any right to force peaceful people to do anything (but not all people are peaceful).

But we've had this debate before.

We don't need slave masters to be safe. We will be safer if we don't get extorted by government thugs and forced to pay taxes in fake fiat currency. The idea that the government works for your benefit is a product of K-12 indoctrination.

Taxation is extortion without consent.

Governments are responsible for the most murder, the most kidnapping, etc. They don't keep the peace, they create the violence. They create the fiat currency debt slavery system.

Nobody has any right to rule over anyone else without their consent.

The government is not peaceful. The government is nothing but illegitimate use of force.

Natural law is do no harm. Only use force in self defense.

[DanielVogelbach]

How does your worldview address threats from other countries? E.g., Japan in WWII, or the concern about Russia during the Cold War? Even for the sake of argument, the "invasions" at the borders by people seeking a better life here?

On border security, Trump has increased that, and obviously that is central power and our tax dollars paying for it whether we agree or not. Do you argue that securing the border is wrong because it's not consistent with natural law, and that taxing me for border security is theft? Or do you argue that "private security" could do as good a job as central (i.e., national) authority?

A major premise of my worldview is that humans naturally go out of their way to avoid conflict and the bad, violent actors make up only a small percentage of humanity. That being said, if one out of 1,000 people decides to murder, they could murder tons of people.

My worldview is that any person who goes on a killing spree will ultimately be dealt with, because humanity values justice. But, if you give the psychopath the power of "government" then he will be able to do much more harm.

I don't believe that the people who wield real power are beholden to any borders. They can go wherever they want whenever they want.

I believe that foreign enemies are largely a fabrication that works for the mutual benefit of each "country". The people are conditioned to ask the exact question you're asking. Well, if we don't have this big powerful military and protect our borders, then surely the Russians or Chinese will invade us. I think it's propaganda and all wars are cooked up by the one world system.

That being said, it makes sense that any movement away from authoritarian government tyranny must work across all of the plantations, not just the one we're currently on.

Freedom is not given by the ruling class. Freedom is taken by the order followers choosing non-compliance.

I don't think anyone needs to defend a "border" that stretches all the way across North America. Then you end up living in a neighborhood where you don't even talk to your neighbors. I like the idea of intentional communities as well as networks that aren't defined by geography. I don't think anyone should desire birthright citizenship. I get that in our slave system it buys you some perks, but I don't think anyone should be forced to show papers to travel.

The free market will provide private property as well as roads and ports for travel and commerce. You can form any type of community that you want in a free market. You just can't force it onto other people without the guns of government.

[Walla Walla Dawg II]

Natural Law:

Look at how the animals live. That's natural law. Where the old are put into positions to get injured or killed in order to benefit the pack. Where the largest/meanest/smartest takes what they want, including rape, assault & theft.

You keep talking about a peaceful society, but it can't exist without laws and a way to enforce them.