Finally! Official Hot Stove League Thread

[bpj]

He certainly is still relative you but what will have to happen to his mind, body and soul to significantly positively impact his performance in April from when he was totally over matched in Late Sept and Oct. What will happen in those six months that hasn't happened yet? ST PAs vs. more minor league pitching?

It frustrates me to know end seeing him rake at AAA. I mean he's an All-Star at that level. It took Nellie until he was 28 before he figured it out. Unfortunately Kelenic doesn't have that much time. I don't know what he needs to do, but last offseason him and McGwire were tinkering with his overall swing and approach. It did seem like he was more selective during his last call up. And I liked the fact that he wasn't hunched over like the first time he got called up.

It might simply be a confidence issue. Hard to say. But that's one reason I felt like, with this particular player, more time at AAA would have made the most sense. Some players can shake failure off, but I think JK carries it with him and the best cure for that would have been more time and a higher level of mastery of AAA pitching. That's also why I feel like 4th outfielder is the best major league role for him, if he is going to be at the ML level. But we'll see if the platoon works, which is a similar concept.

Good points Storm. I'd say it is mainly a confidence issue at this point. You could tell just watching him that even Kelenic thought he sucked by the end of this season. And he's not wrong.

As Donn was pointing out, Kelenic and Dylan Moore have some similar numbers, but Moore has rarely been handed steady playing time (and when he has, he was getting moved around to 8 different positions), where when Kelenic has been up, he plays consecutive days often. Not to mention Moore had stretches where he was well above average, something Kelenic has not done.

People point to Trammell's struggles to end the season and compare them to Kelenic's. The huge difference is when Trammell struggled he was getting jerked around, playing once or twice per week. On the other hand, when Kelenic's been up- especially the last couple times- he's been in the game 5+ times per week. In my opinion it's no surprise that Trammell couldn't get on a roll to end the season, he rarely played in consecutive games at that point, much less receiving steady playing time.

Anyways, for whatever reason they put Kelenic on a pedestal and it's come back to bite them to the degree that he's a throw-in in a trade instead of a centerpiece. Quite a shame.

Trammell in 2022:
1st Half: .779 OPS
2nd Half: .321 (but it's in only 23 plate appearances)

Trammell's 2nd half playing time looked like this:
9/1- 4 Plate Appearances
9/4- 2 PA
9/5- 3 PA
9/7- 2 PA
9/11- 1 PA as pinch hitter
9/14- 1 PA as late replacement
9/17- 3 PA
9/19- 1 PA as pinch hitter
9/25- 2 PA
10/5- 4 PA

Look at that playing time. Does anybody expect him to get on a roll doing that?

On the other hand, Kelenic:
7/31- 3 PA
8/1- 4 PA
8/2- 2 PA
8/3- 4 PA
8/5- 1 PA as pinch hitter
8/6- 3 PA
8/7- 4 PA
8/9- 3 PA
8/10- 3 PA
After getting called back up-
9/22- 4 PA
9/23- 4 PA
9/24- 5 PA
9/25- 5 PA
9/27- 4 PA
9/28- 3 PA
9/29- 5 PA
9/30- 3 PA
10/1- 4 PA
10/2- 4 PA
10/3- 4 PA
10/4 game one- 5 PA
10/4 game two- 5 PA
10/5- 3 PA

And then, Kelenic got the majority of the playoff at bats also, and surprise surprise!, he sucked again.

Kelenic in 2022:
1st Half: .509 OPS
2nd Half: .561 OPS

When I say Trammell was getting jerked around, this is what I mean. Their playing time was not at all comparable.

[D-train]

It frustrates me to know end seeing him rake at AAA. I mean he's an All-Star at that level. It took Nellie until he was 28 before he figured it out. Unfortunately Kelenic doesn't have that much time. I don't know what he needs to do, but last offseason him and McGwire were tinkering with his overall swing and approach. It did seem like he was more selective during his last call up. And I liked the fact that he wasn't hunched over like the first time he got called up.

It might simply be a confidence issue. Hard to say. But that's one reason I felt like, with this particular player, more time at AAA would have made the most sense. Some players can shake failure off, but I think JK carries it with him and the best cure for that would have been more time and a higher level of mastery of AAA pitching. That's also why I feel like 4th outfielder is the best major league role for him, if he is going to be at the ML level. But we'll see if the platoon works, which is a similar concept.

The Nelson Cruz comp makes some sense. He had several years where he was an up/down player, putting up very good AAA numbers and not nearly as good with the major league club. Though his ML numbers in those years were much better than JK's, it was a much easier offensive environment at that time as well. Most clubs in those years didn't have the deep rotations and deep bullpens that teams have today. You really have to hand it to Cruz for his work ethic and continuing to try to improve. It must have been pretty frustrating at times. I don't know if he'll get signed this year, but if not I wish the M's would try to bring him on as a coach if JD hasn't completely alienated him.

This is the key point that a lot of people ignore. Every time someone tries to find a comp it is ALWAYS the case where the comp was slow to breakout so the analogy works in that sense but they at least hit about the Mendoza line not freakin .141. He just has too far to go to be even an adequate hitter let alone average. I mean he hit .056 vs breaking balls. He literally can't touch them.

[D-train]

It frustrates me to know end seeing him rake at AAA. I mean he's an All-Star at that level. It took Nellie until he was 28 before he figured it out. Unfortunately Kelenic doesn't have that much time. I don't know what he needs to do, but last offseason him and McGwire were tinkering with his overall swing and approach. It did seem like he was more selective during his last call up. And I liked the fact that he wasn't hunched over like the first time he got called up.

It might simply be a confidence issue. Hard to say. But that's one reason I felt like, with this particular player, more time at AAA would have made the most sense. Some players can shake failure off, but I think JK carries it with him and the best cure for that would have been more time and a higher level of mastery of AAA pitching. That's also why I feel like 4th outfielder is the best major league role for him, if he is going to be at the ML level. But we'll see if the platoon works, which is a similar concept.

Good points Storm. I'd say it is mainly a confidence issue at this point. You could tell just watching him that even Kelenic thought he sucked by the end of this season. And he's not wrong.

As Donn was pointing out, Kelenic and Dylan Moore have some similar numbers, but Moore has rarely been handed steady playing time (and when he has, he was getting moved around to 8 different positions), where when Kelenic has been up, he plays consecutive days often. Not to mention Moore had stretches where he was well above average, something Kelenic has not done.

People point to Trammell's struggles to end the season and compare them to Kelenic's. The huge difference is when Trammell struggled he was getting jerked around, playing once or twice per week. On the other hand, when Kelenic's been up- especially the last couple times- he's been in the game 5+ times per week. In my opinion it's no surprise that Trammell couldn't get on a roll to end the season, he rarely played in consecutive games at that point, much less receiving steady playing time.

Anyways, for whatever reason they put Kelenic on a pedestal and it's come back to bite them to the degree that he's a throw-in in a trade instead of a centerpiece. Quite a shame.

Trammell in 2022:
1st Half: .779 OPS
2nd Half: .321 (but it's in only 23 plate appearances)

Trammell's 2nd half playing time looked like this:
9/1- 4 Plate Appearances
9/4- 2 PA
9/5- 3 PA
9/7- 2 PA
9/11- 1 PA as pinch hitter
9/14- 1 PA as late replacement
9/17- 3 PA
9/19- 1 PA as pinch hitter
9/25- 2 PA
10/5- 4 PA

Look at that playing time. Does anybody expect him to get on a roll doing that?

On the other hand, Kelenic:
7/31- 3 PA
8/1- 4 PA
8/2- 2 PA
8/3- 4 PA
8/5- 1 PA as pinch hitter
8/6- 3 PA
8/7- 4 PA
8/9- 3 PA
8/10- 3 PA
After getting called back up-
9/22- 4 PA
9/23- 4 PA
9/24- 5 PA
9/25- 5 PA
9/27- 4 PA
9/28- 3 PA
9/29- 5 PA
9/30- 3 PA
10/1- 4 PA
10/2- 4 PA
10/3- 4 PA
10/4 game one- 5 PA
10/4 game two- 5 PA
10/5- 3 PA

And then, Kelenic got the majority of the playoff at bats also, and surprise surprise!, he sucked again.

Kelenic in 2022:
1st Half: .509 OPS
2nd Half: .561 OPS

When I say Trammell was getting jerked around, this is what I mean. Their playing time was not at all comparable.

Great post but everyone still talks about JK be the platoon guy in LF. Actually Jerry does mention him but he also mentions the others so maybe it will come down to ST if one guy can separate himself.

“This year, we go in with some (outfield) combination of Julio (Rodríguez), Jarred Kelenic and Jesse Winker, and I don’t want to discount the idea that that Taylor Trammell or even potentially (prospect) Cade Marlowe could be in that mix,” Dipoto said. “But where Kel fits, that story will be told – whether that is an everyday position, whether as a fourth outfielder or a member of a four-man rotation – is going to be defined by what we do in this market via trade and free agency.”

[D-train]

[D-train]

God this is too much. Tweet of the month......

[ddraig]

Dipoto couldn't find the penny he picked up in the parking lot and because of that, we lost the bidding war!

[bpj]

It might simply be a confidence issue. Hard to say. But that's one reason I felt like, with this particular player, more time at AAA would have made the most sense. Some players can shake failure off, but I think JK carries it with him and the best cure for that would have been more time and a higher level of mastery of AAA pitching. That's also why I feel like 4th outfielder is the best major league role for him, if he is going to be at the ML level. But we'll see if the platoon works, which is a similar concept.

Good points Storm. I'd say it is mainly a confidence issue at this point. You could tell just watching him that even Kelenic thought he sucked by the end of this season. And he's not wrong.

As Donn was pointing out, Kelenic and Dylan Moore have some similar numbers, but Moore has rarely been handed steady playing time (and when he has, he was getting moved around to 8 different positions), where when Kelenic has been up, he plays consecutive days often. Not to mention Moore had stretches where he was well above average, something Kelenic has not done.

People point to Trammell's struggles to end the season and compare them to Kelenic's. The huge difference is when Trammell struggled he was getting jerked around, playing once or twice per week. On the other hand, when Kelenic's been up- especially the last couple times- he's been in the game 5+ times per week. In my opinion it's no surprise that Trammell couldn't get on a roll to end the season, he rarely played in consecutive games at that point, much less receiving steady playing time.

Anyways, for whatever reason they put Kelenic on a pedestal and it's come back to bite them to the degree that he's a throw-in in a trade instead of a centerpiece. Quite a shame.

Trammell in 2022:
1st Half: .779 OPS
2nd Half: .321 (but it's in only 23 plate appearances)

Trammell's 2nd half playing time looked like this:
9/1- 4 Plate Appearances
9/4- 2 PA
9/5- 3 PA
9/7- 2 PA
9/11- 1 PA as pinch hitter
9/14- 1 PA as late replacement
9/17- 3 PA
9/19- 1 PA as pinch hitter
9/25- 2 PA
10/5- 4 PA

Look at that playing time. Does anybody expect him to get on a roll doing that?

On the other hand, Kelenic:
7/31- 3 PA
8/1- 4 PA
8/2- 2 PA
8/3- 4 PA
8/5- 1 PA as pinch hitter
8/6- 3 PA
8/7- 4 PA
8/9- 3 PA
8/10- 3 PA
After getting called back up-
9/22- 4 PA
9/23- 4 PA
9/24- 5 PA
9/25- 5 PA
9/27- 4 PA
9/28- 3 PA
9/29- 5 PA
9/30- 3 PA
10/1- 4 PA
10/2- 4 PA
10/3- 4 PA
10/4 game one- 5 PA
10/4 game two- 5 PA
10/5- 3 PA

And then, Kelenic got the majority of the playoff at bats also, and surprise surprise!, he sucked again.

Kelenic in 2022:
1st Half: .509 OPS
2nd Half: .561 OPS

When I say Trammell was getting jerked around, this is what I mean. Their playing time was not at all comparable.

Great post but everyone still talks about JK be the platoon guy in LF. Actually Jerry does mention him but he also mentions the others so maybe it will come down to ST if one guy can separate himself.

“This year, we go in with some (outfield) combination of Julio (Rodríguez), Jarred Kelenic and Jesse Winker, and I don’t want to discount the idea that that Taylor Trammell or even potentially (prospect) Cade Marlowe could be in that mix,” Dipoto said. “But where Kel fits, that story will be told – whether that is an everyday position, whether as a fourth outfielder or a member of a four-man rotation – is going to be defined by what we do in this market via trade and free agency.”

Exactly, and they want to talk about how Kelenic "needs the at bats" to show what he's got, so why are we giving up on him..

Yet, the same people have already written off Taylor Trammell who had a 99 wRC+ this season compared to Kelenics 55.

And Trammell only has 295 MLB plate appearances compared to Kelenics 558.

But it's KELENIC they need to see more of??

Wtf.....

2022:

Screenshot_20221230_121505_DuckDuckGo.jpg (64.88 KiB) Viewed 547 times

Career:

Screenshot_20221230_121446_DuckDuckGo.jpg (68.4 KiB) Viewed 547 times

[D-train]

Good points Storm. I'd say it is mainly a confidence issue at this point. You could tell just watching him that even Kelenic thought he sucked by the end of this season. And he's not wrong.

As Donn was pointing out, Kelenic and Dylan Moore have some similar numbers, but Moore has rarely been handed steady playing time (and when he has, he was getting moved around to 8 different positions), where when Kelenic has been up, he plays consecutive days often. Not to mention Moore had stretches where he was well above average, something Kelenic has not done.

People point to Trammell's struggles to end the season and compare them to Kelenic's. The huge difference is when Trammell struggled he was getting jerked around, playing once or twice per week. On the other hand, when Kelenic's been up- especially the last couple times- he's been in the game 5+ times per week. In my opinion it's no surprise that Trammell couldn't get on a roll to end the season, he rarely played in consecutive games at that point, much less receiving steady playing time.

Anyways, for whatever reason they put Kelenic on a pedestal and it's come back to bite them to the degree that he's a throw-in in a trade instead of a centerpiece. Quite a shame.

Trammell in 2022:
1st Half: .779 OPS
2nd Half: .321 (but it's in only 23 plate appearances)

Trammell's 2nd half playing time looked like this:
9/1- 4 Plate Appearances
9/4- 2 PA
9/5- 3 PA
9/7- 2 PA
9/11- 1 PA as pinch hitter
9/14- 1 PA as late replacement
9/17- 3 PA
9/19- 1 PA as pinch hitter
9/25- 2 PA
10/5- 4 PA

Look at that playing time. Does anybody expect him to get on a roll doing that?

On the other hand, Kelenic:
7/31- 3 PA
8/1- 4 PA
8/2- 2 PA
8/3- 4 PA
8/5- 1 PA as pinch hitter
8/6- 3 PA
8/7- 4 PA
8/9- 3 PA
8/10- 3 PA
After getting called back up-
9/22- 4 PA
9/23- 4 PA
9/24- 5 PA
9/25- 5 PA
9/27- 4 PA
9/28- 3 PA
9/29- 5 PA
9/30- 3 PA
10/1- 4 PA
10/2- 4 PA
10/3- 4 PA
10/4 game one- 5 PA
10/4 game two- 5 PA
10/5- 3 PA

And then, Kelenic got the majority of the playoff at bats also, and surprise surprise!, he sucked again.

Kelenic in 2022:
1st Half: .509 OPS
2nd Half: .561 OPS

When I say Trammell was getting jerked around, this is what I mean. Their playing time was not at all comparable.

Great post but everyone still talks about JK be the platoon guy in LF. Actually Jerry does mention him but he also mentions the others so maybe it will come down to ST if one guy can separate himself.

“This year, we go in with some (outfield) combination of Julio (Rodríguez), Jarred Kelenic and Jesse Winker, and I don’t want to discount the idea that that Taylor Trammell or even potentially (prospect) Cade Marlowe could be in that mix,” Dipoto said. “But where Kel fits, that story will be told – whether that is an everyday position, whether as a fourth outfielder or a member of a four-man rotation – is going to be defined by what we do in this market via trade and free agency.”

Exactly, and they want to talk about how Kelenic "needs the at bats" to show what he's got, so why are we giving up on him..

Yet, the same people have already written off Taylor Trammell who had a 99 wRC+ this season compared to Kelenics 55.

And Trammell only has 295 MLB plate appearances compared to Kelenics 558.

But it's KELENIC they need to see more of??

Wtf.....

2022:

Screenshot_20221230_121505_DuckDuckGo.jpg

Career:

Screenshot_20221230_121446_DuckDuckGo.jpg

Where is BLM when you need them!!! LOL

[D-train]

Bpj you might want to consider getting connected with the Oregon Soccer community. This She/her might need some company.

[D-train]

This actually gives me hope the are seriously in on Reynolds.